It’s amazing how every defender of John Giduck seems tied into one of three incestuous relationships.  They seem to usually be on the payroll of one of John Giduck’s company (or getting some financial benefit from that association), tied in LTC Dave Grossman’s circle of the most ridiculously named events called “Sheepdog Seminars”, or seem to have (usually sexual) relationships with John Giduck (usually at some risk to their future financial well being – ask Donna Yaklich or Donna’s apparent twin sister, Shari). When will these people learn that Giduck will sell out his friends in a heartbeat?


Carl recently published the following defense of John Giduck:

John Giduck is a good man who has been opposed by very strong opposition with questionable motives (and I might add – questionable resources that drive that opposition). A (if not “the”) primary message of his book, Terror at Beslan, is that the events which occurred there on 9/1/04 were a training ground for a U.S. operation. I believe him to be right on the money. One really has to ask how and why such a well-funded opposition has been so effective at resisting such a powerful message.

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As a religious man, Carl should at least understand that lying is a sin.  John Giduck has no shortages of lies in his speaker bios about being a US Army Ranger and years worth of documented Special Forces claims that he simply never corrected. There’s also what appear to be actual crimes such as using non-profit community corrections grants for halfway prisoners in the Sudan against myriad federal statutes or violating the Pennsylvania State Ethics with another incestuous Giduck defender, Joseph Bail, who serves as the Police Commissioner of te Chester, PA Police Department.  Of course, as a former maintenance man, perhaps Carl doesn’t grasp the fact that John Giduck’s false claims of being in Beslan right after the attack or his military experience consisting wholly of 58 days without completing US Army Basic Training and several weeks of military style adventure camps in Russia might detract from the credibility of John Giduck’s message to readers.

Strong authoritative statements in defense of John Giduck are particularly interesting when the defender has some element of questionable experience in their own background. The latest example appears to be a groundsman/maintenance man turned world authority on Church Security by the name of Carl Chinn. Carl is part of the incestuous circle of self promoting seminar speakers that follow the change that falls out of the pockets of LTC Dave Grossman from all the cops that actually believe that Grossman was a steely eyed Airborne Ranger (went to the school as do almost ALL US Army officers but did such hazardous duty as serving at West Point) and that Grossman was actually a Pultizer Prize winning author (there is no evidence other than LTC Grossman’s statements that he is).

Back to Carl. He claims to have been “directly involved” in two active shooter events.

 In 1996 he was a responder in a standoff with an angry gunman who took hostages at the Focus on the Family ministry. He also stood face to face with the gunman in the attack at  New Life church in Colorado Springs.

Let’s look at Carl’s role as a responder in each of those events.


We can verify that Carl was indeed involved in this event

About 90 minutes after the gunman entered the building, as he talked on the telephone with a police negotiator, the four hostages left the building In addition to Keyes, they were identified as security  chief Mike Benzie, receptionist Judy Baker and Carl Chinn. a grounds and facilities worker

Carl described his role in this first event to the press as follows:

As Chinn was working in his office that day, his radio sounded an alarm, notifying him there was a situation needing attention at the front desk in the administration building. Chinn got up to walk to the nearby location. “I remember thinking it was probably the receptionist wondering what the button was about,” he says. Looking at his watch, he timed the distance from his desk to the front lobby. Seventeen seconds wasn’t bad. That’s when he looked up and saw the gun. A man who had been permanently injured while working as a construction worker when the Colorado offices for Focus were being built had taken two women in the front lobby hostage and was threatening to blow up the building. Because of the ministry’s quick security response, effective law enforcement tactics and prayer, the man was ultimately convinced by police to release the hostages and eventually taken into custody.

One of Carl’s cheerleaders adds some further embellishment below

 Through Carl’s efforts the gunman was persuaded to allow an evacuation of the building, except for Carl and three others.  After several hours of negotiations, the gunman surrendered.

And even more in depth  here:

[Carl] had been a responding employee to a duress alarm when a disgruntled, former building contractor employee showed up on the faith based campus of Focus on the Family (FOTF) also in Colorado Springs, CO. The domestic terrorist (DT) who presented himself on the FOTF campus on 2 May 1996 was armed with a Walther pistol and a backpack he claimed was full of explosives. Carl Chinn was not armed that day.

But because of Carl’s command and control of the situation no one died that day in May, which also happened to be National Day of Prayer.

Let’s see how Carl’s and his cheerleader story mesh with another hostage’s first hand recounting of the same event:

“Laurilee!” shouted Judy Baker, sitting next to her. “Hang up the phone right now!”

“I looked up and a gun was pointed at me,” says Laurilee. “Then the gunman started screaming that he wanted everyone else out of there.

“It really scared me when he started stripping off his clothes,” Laurilee says. “But he stopped at his waist and put on a vest that he said contained explosives. He held the gun in one hand and a detonator in the other.”

For the next 90 minutes, the two hostages talked calmly with the gunman.

“What’s your name?” Laurilee asked as Judy offered him a glass of water.

Then, in what Laurilee describes as a divine moment, Dore was on the phone with the police negotiator, and the women heard him say he wouldn’t hurt the hostages. He never looked at the women to give them permission to leave; they didn’t look at each other; no one spoke; Judy and Laurilee simultaneously got up and slipped out the door.

Hmm…Carl isn’t even part of the story she told.  Carl really must have played a big role (sarcasm). We also have this less than stellar description of Carl’s role.

Dore entered the group’s main building at 1:30 p.m. He went to the reception desk and pointed his pistol at two employees, tour guide Laurilee Keyes and receptionist Judy Baker. He told them he wanted the facility cleared and that he was carrying explosives and planned to blow up the building. At this point one of the women activated a panic button, which summoned a security guard, Mike Benzie, and a building engineer, Carl Chinn.

To evacuate the building, Benzie set off the fire alarm. While Dore never indicated that Benzie or Chinn had to stay, they chose to remain in the building with the two women.

So, while Carl was “there” and good on him from staying voluntarily but, the facts seem to show that he was a “hostage” of his free will of his own free will, didn’t seem to have contributed anything from the statements of other hostages, and was a “responder” in the context of a facilities alarm.


For context, Wikipedia summarizes the New Life Church shooting as follows:

At about 1:00 p.m. MST (20:00 UTC), thirty minutes after the 11:00 a.m. service had ended at New Life Church, Murray opened fire in the church parking lot, shooting the Works family and Judy Purcell. Murray then entered the building’s main foyer where he shot Larry Bourbonnais, hitting him in the forearm. At this point, church member Jeanne Assam, a former Minneapolis police officer, opened fire on Murray with her personally owned concealed weapon. Police say that after suffering multiple hits from Assam’s gun, Murray fatally shot himself

Carl story and the story of those around Carl seem very different from the Wikipedia summary. In a manner very similar to John Giduck’s tall tales about his background, Carl seems to be marketing himself as a hero during the New Life Church shooting.  Here’s how Carl describes his actions on that fateful day.

[Carl] was one of the team of responders who engaged the killer on 12/09/2007.

From his book reviews on Amazon

 In 2005 he and colleagues started the security program at New Life Church in Colorado Springs. When evil invaded that sanctuary on 12/09/2007 (in the form of an active shooter with an assault rifle) Chinn was one of four who actively responded to the gunman.

Carl Chinn was involved in campus security of the NLC. When gun shots started to be reported he moved quickly to the sound of those guns.

The most heroic quote comes from a website author that spent the day with carl and clearly must have been told what he later wrote

I spent the day will Carl at one of his seminars over the weekend.

His second encounter happen a few years later at New Life Church, Ted Haggard’s church in Colorado Springs.  Carl was shot at and returned fire during a deadly encounter of 2007The gunman died at the scene.

Wow….what a courageous story.  Carl even returned fire in this account! To be clear, I have no doubt that Mr Chinn was involved in the security planing for the church.

Then, a decade later, on Dec. 9, 2007 Chinn was at New Life Church when Matthew Murray went on a shooting rampage in the parking lot, killing two sisters.
“As a result of what we experienced at Focus on the Family, we (New Life) began to develop an intentional security program,” Chinn said. “Then of course 2007 came, and it was needed.”

The problem is that all of these stories differ from other accounts of the responses (except for Mr. Chinn’s, of course) .

Later, at New Life Church, a gunman wearing a trench coat and carrying a high-powered rifle opened fire in the parking lot and later walked into the church as a service was letting out. Jeanne Assam, a church member who volunteers as a security guard, shot Murray, who was found with a rifle and two handguns, police said. Assam said she believes God gave her the strength to confront Murray, keeping her calm and focused.

“It seemed like it was me, the gunman and God, she said at a news conference.  The pastor credited her with preventing more bloodshed. “There could have been a great loss of life yesterday, and she probably saved over 100 lives.”

Hmm.  Unless Carl Chinn is claiming to be God, he isn’t named as one of the responders.  We have even more clarification in the following video interview by Ms. Assam which has the entire story of the shoot without a single mention of ANYONE else at the scene:

Everyone was gone. There was no one left in the hallway except for me and the gunman (starts at 4:20)

The video has a map of the length of the hallway.  It isn’t small.

Where was Carl Chinn?

Again, in the style of John Giduck, the only witness confirming Carl Chinn’s “active response” to the shooter is…not surprisingly…Carl Chinn. Colorado Springs PD released 478 pages of documents on the New Life Church shooting (Case report number 07-40399). Let’s look at carl’s witness statement from that document.

(pg407 ) Witness Carl Chinn, part of the security detail:
“…he and Jeanne got to the gunman at about the same time. …. He said the gunman’s left hand and index finger were near the trigger of the rifle. Mr. Chinn said he was standing on the left side of the gunman and was pointing his gun at the gunman’s head and was holding it approximately 8″ from the gunman’s left temple. He said he was watching the gunman’s eyes and the trigger finger near the assualt [sic] rifle. …. He also observed blood squirting from the right side of the gunman’s neck area.”
[Comment: The blood exiting the neck must have been the final shot. In which case Murray’s hand should have been on or near a pistol, not a rifle.]

I’ll be honest and say that my first thought upon reading these other accounts was “where was the supposedly heroic Mr. Chinn? Was he hiding instead of advancing to the sound of the guns?”  I think there is enough evidence to show that no one other than Ms. Assam engaged the shooter. Well, Mr. Chinn apparently anticipates and wants to have his chance at revising history in his own book.

Just a few of the many things I found of interested in these chapters were when Chinn discussed how his decision to carry a .32 ACP pistol that day – with which his effective range was 10 yards – came into play when his opponent brought a “black rifle” to the fight; how he was forced to anticipate the killer’s path and take an ambush position so that the distance between the two would be closer when he engaged; how he experienced with tunnel vision, and failed to see a boy hiding between his ambush position and the approaching attacker; and how his position was exposed by an adrenaline-infused stranger who misinterpreted his waiting in ambush as hiding or being frozen in fear and began yelling at him to take out the killer or to give him his gun (for his efforts, the stranger drew incoming fire and was shot in the arm).

Clearly, SOMEONE on scene at the scene must have thought that Mr. Chinn was hiding or frozen in fear or Carl would not have addressed this in his book. Mr. Chinn seems to be verbalizing what he may know others are thinking. Interestingly, we know who this “adrenaline infused stranger” is and he has a completely different account of the same events that matches Carls story but tells a far more believable and revealing tale of our hero, Mr. Chinn:

Near an entryway in the church, Bourbonnais came upon the gunman and an armed male church security guard who was there with his gun drawn but not firing, he said.

Bourbonnais said he pleaded with the armed guard to give him his weapon.

“Give me your handgun. I’ve been in combat, and I’m going to take this guy out,” Bourbonnais recalled telling the guard. “He kept yelling, ‘Get behind me! Get behind me!’ He wouldn’t hand me his weapon, but he wouldn’t do anything.

There was an additional armed security guard there, another man, who also didn’t fire, Bourbonnais said.


At about that moment, Assam turned a corner with a drawn handgun, walked toward the gunman and yelled “Surrender!” Bourbonnais said.

The gunman pointed a handgun at Assam and fired three shots, Bourbonnais said. She returned fire and just kept walking toward the gunman pressing off round after round.

“She (Assam) was yelling, I recall, ‘Surrender.’ I didn’t want to get in her way. I was unarmed, so I ran kind of up and parallel because I couldn’t see,” said Bourbonnais. “She fired off 10 or 12 shots and we both came around the corner and he started sliding down and he started bleeding. He looked pretty dead. I told her to take a headshot and she said, ‘No, I think he’s dead.’ I took a handgun out of his hand because I was unarmed. I cleared it. It had jammed, I remember that.”

So, this adds a lot of detail. Carl Chinn was some distance away from the shooter and around a corner. Chinn was not advancing as did the other two. Additionally, Mr Chinn’s observations in his 2013 book seem substantially different from Ms. Assam’s accounts (“no one else was there”) or even the report cited from the time and posted above in which Mr. Chinn claims to have reached the shooter at the same time as Ms. Assam.

Mr. Chinn can’t have it both ways. There is no mention of Carl Chinn turning the corner with either Ms. Assam or Mr. Bourbonnais.  Was Carl Chinn still hiding or frozen with fear? It would also appear that Carl Chinn as much as admits that he couldn’t distinguish good targets from bad targets. A book review of Carl Chinn’s book relstes the following from Carl Chinn’s book…

After the killer was down, this same stranger was nearly shot by safety team members after he ran to the body and took possession of the killer’s handgun, raising it in the air.

Someone help me understand who the adreneline infused person was given that security team almost shot Mr. Bourbonnais.  The observations above seem to indicate that it was Carl Chinn who likely was never close enough to have engaged the shooter at the same time as Ms. Assam and doesn’t have appeared to have turned at the same time as Mr. Bourbonnais. In the YouTube video interview below, Mr. Bourbonnais has more details about the security guard that was around the corner and also a event timeline that includes enough time for a casual conversation between him and Ms. Assam after the shooter was dead. More time appears to have passed before the two security guards arrived on scene.

I only saw one [security guard] but about a minute later when it was all over, two ran up. (4:58 in the video)

So, up to a minutes, Carl’s “heroic” security team couldn’t distinguish between a dead shooter in a long black trenchcoat and a male & female talking casually over a dead body with the male having just talked to him and having just turned the corner from where he was.

In my opinion, if anyone should be teaching seminars and writing books about this event, it should be Ms. Assam as Carl Chinn doesn’t seem to have have done anything other than be a danger to those around him.

One can reasonably opine that Carl Chinn is substantially embellishing his role in this second event. Besides the heroism of Ms. Assam there doesn’t seem to be  any first person or media evidence that any other members of this mysterious security team were anywhere close to the active shooter or returning fire…except in Carl Chinn’s version of events. What’s important to remember here is, like John Giduck and LTC Dave Grossman, Carl Chinn is also trying to sell you books and seminars based on this experience. His stories and his experience seem to marked by the same flimsy qualifications and lack of experience as the other two authors as well.

The saddest part is that for all the security planning that Mr. Chinn claims to have done before this event, it was only some wise decisions on the part of Ms. Assam that saved the day

I wasn’t going to go to church that day. I was going to stay home…..[1:24] I had noticed just by chance I noticed a real smallsentence in the upper right hand corner of my computer that said there was a shooting at this christian facility that I was unfamiliar with in Arvada Colorado and even though it was 70 miles or so north of where we were in Colorado Springs, I just got instant chills and just knew that he was going to come to New Life Church. So I called the director and said “did you hear about this shooting in Arvada” and he said, ‘yes'” and I said, “I’m coming in”. (1:05)

So, if Carl wants to know why “the opposition” is resisting John Giduck’s message, he should read through this blog  and then look at the clowns that surround Giduck and defend him. These clowns include Carl Chinn…a former gardener/building supe and now master embellisher trying to use the same  snake oil techniques that his mentors use to separate you from your money.


In 2005, John Giduck Warned Us To Beware People Like Him

How John Giduck Misleads You: Brad Thor Lies About John Giduck

How John Giduck Misleads You: Walter Chi Lies About John Giduck’s Legend

An Open Letter to LTC Dave Grossman About John Giduck